Last week, I upset a lot of people by suggesting Zionists saw themselves as “chosen”. My words were badly chosen and poorly used, and I’m sorry for it. But accusations of antisemitism have also been intemperate. One can accept the right of Israel to exist, while still believing that the manner in which the nation was created – against the wishes of many of the people already living there, hundreds of thousands of whom became refugees – was problematic and made a contribution to Israel’s subsequent and terrible troubles. (This, in turn, does not imply that the violence against Israel has been either justified or deserved. It has done the Palestinian cause much damage, and rightly so.)
Nevertheless, it would be absurd to believe that Jewish people are any more or less capable of making geo-political miscalculations than anybody else, or any more or less likely to be called to account for them. Evidence from every corner of the world, throughout the ages, attests to the fact that such behaviour is all too typical of humans, as is reluctance to accept that such actions are bound to have their critics.
Deborah Orr’s response is revealing. Does she even know what she has been accused of?
Addressing charges of anti-Semitism, she says that “one can accept the right of Israel to exist.” Orr’s use of the third person leaves us wondering whether or not she does actually does accept Israel’s right to exist. In any case, this was never the issue and it is incredibly disturbing that Orr’s best defense against the charges against her is to concede that Israel may have the right to exist as if this lame concession should immunize her against the criticism she is facing.
Yair
2:08 pm
Oct 27, 2011
A hollow answer for hollow heads.
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Marie-Chantal
10:01 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Somehow it feels like a déjà vu, a putrid whiff from the 1930’s.
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Fran Terry
3:16 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Deborah Orr is just one of many who wish to demonize the Jewish people at any and all costs. She and many of the other members of the media know full well what they are saying and do so with apparent impunity. Fortunately, or unfortunately for her, the truth will out. Thus she and others of a similar persuasion should be treated with the comtempt they deserve.
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Barbara reisner
3:22 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Does Deborah Orr question any other nation’s right to exist or has she “chosen” only Israel’s existence?
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Joe Briscoe
5:26 pm
Oct 27, 2011
May I suggest that Ms. Orr announce that “some of her best friends are Jewish.”
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joseph mamelak
5:29 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
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Alex
6:44 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Her word are not true and are total lies. The State of Israel was not created on Palestian land in 1948. Israel was the one that agreed to a partition plan that would give it a much smaller land then promissed in the Balfour decleration of 1917.
The Palestinians back then as they are not wanted and want all of Israel and will not agree ton any peace deal that will include the end of Israel.
The Chechens on the other hand want their own homeland and not all of Russia.
Palestinian refugees are a result of the Arab declaring war on the newly created state of Israel and the fact some claim that Israel is to blame for not being destroyed, is disguasting.
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Adrian
5:53 pm
Oct 27, 2011
The Editor
The Guardian.
Sir
When explaining logic to pupils, my old headmaster would say “Donkeys have ears, we
have ears, therefore we must be donkeys”.
Deborah Orr says Israel’s creation was against the wishes of many of the people living
there. She adds that hundreds of thousands became refugees.
Whenever in history, when a political entity was created, were there no residents whose
wishes were against it? In order to overcome ‘Political’ differences within a
population, history has tended to divide that population either through treaty or by war.
Jew and Muslim in the British Mandate lands ultimately resulted in The United Nations
‘Two state solution’ of Jewish Israel (approx12.5%) and Arab Jordan/palestine (approx
87.5%) This was accepted by the Jews, despite, I think, a prior expectation, of at least,
50/50. Orr appears to think this is, in some way, wrong.
Since this inequitable (for Jew) split, palestinians have chosen further to subdivide
themselves, violently, into Gaza and West Bank. This has created a far worse situation
for palestinians left in Gaza than ever for those who found themselves living in Israel
in 1948. What words does Orr have for the Gazans who now find themselves living under a
government they don’t like? Hindu/Moslem India was divided by forming Pakistan with
millions (not thousands) being displaced. East/West Germany of old or the splitting of
Eastern European countries between Serb and Croat? History provides an interminable
list. Populations exchange and move to get what they want; its a fact of life. Far more
Jews were displaced through necessity from Arab countries than Arabs from palestine,
which was in the main at the request of their own leaders.
When Orr singles out, for criticism, only Jewish Israel, created ultimately, through
common sense logic to give an opportunity for self determination to /ALL/ the residents
of the land, she shows her true anti-Jewish colours and twisted logic. It is the logic of
the ears!
In my view her anodyne words and strained apology offer her no escape.
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Abu Nudnik
6:20 pm
Oct 27, 2011
You’re missing a wider point. People like Orr feel tall standing on someone. Their saintliness requires a devil. Its illusion can’t be ripped away by calling her an anti-Semite. This only helps her to cement that delusion. If the Jews attack her it is because they are wrong, you see?
What is needed is to understand how little she cares for the Palestinians too. You see, you could just as easily say that a 1000 to one swap shows Palestinians think their lives are worth 1000 times more than Israelis but she doesn’t even though everyone knows everyone feels their group’s lives are more valuable: it’s natural.
But here’s the rub. The Israelis, in her world, are responsible for both their own action and those of her adversaries. Did the Israelis insist on releasing more prisoners? That she ascribes no responsibility or will to the Palestinians shows she has an even greater contempt for them as for Israelis. She is just slumming, trying to find a garbage can to stand on.
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Mike Shapiro
8:06 pm
Oct 27, 2011
Ms. Orr provide the requisite “athlete’s apology”, to wit:
“I’m sorry that you were offended by what I said.”
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sav'ta shel Cohen
8:53 pm
Oct 27, 2011
A Clayton’s apology from a Clayton’s journalist! She tries to discredit her critics and make them look pathetically sensitive by claiming that it was her use of the word “chosen” that offended them neglecting to apologize for her obvious attempts to distort facts and events. So basically she has used her “apology” to spew out more anti-semitic bile. If anyone is reluctant to accept the fact that poor performance will always be recognized and draw criticism it is Ms Orr. It is she who has made a gross “miscalculation”!
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Sam Spiegel
9:57 pm
Oct 27, 2011
The refugee problem is only a manifestation of anti-Semitism as well. They became refugees because they did not want a Jewish presence. There was no refugee problem when they were governed by Egypt and Jordan.
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Mike
12:23 am
Oct 28, 2011
Deborah Orr’s veiled suggestion that the creation of Israel was a “mistake” does rather highlight a disturbing trend in the attitude of “higher minds” in Western Europe. Since they see themselves as paragons of justice and ethics, perhaps the way to deal with them is to use the same “ethical” arguments, such as: who ultimately is responsible for the need to recreate Israel if not these selfsame countries of Europe who for centuries kicked the Jews from pillar to post.
Here we have the likes of Orr lecturing the Jews on their wickedness in creating Israel when they haven’t a single word to say in answer to the question “What were the Jews supposed to do?” They had tried just about everything in order to be accepted in their host countries, from keeping a low profile to being loyal citizens to being “more German than the Germans” but nothing worked. Zip, nada. All they got was the Full Monty from snide after dinner conversation to full blown pogroms,expulsions and gas chambers. So again, I ask Orr and others with her mindset, don’t you think the minimum Europe could have done to wipe away the stain of Anti Semitism was to lend full support to the creation of Israel? If they had, instead of the mealy mouthed grudging tone most of them used, the Arabs would have had to confront the historical reality that the Jews really do have a moral and legal right to at least part of the ancient Land of Israel and would never have tried to push them into the sea. They would have accepted Partition, there would have been no refugees, no wars, no misery etc etc. But no, instead we get this same mindless mantra about how it’s all the fault of the Jews. Let’s face it Orr-what you’re really saying is that the existence of the Jews as a distinct people in their own land is a historical aberration, something that somehow just shouldn’t have happened because it simply does not fit your conception of how history should unfold.
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Jiri Adler
1:05 am
Oct 28, 2011
“…against the wishes of many of the people already living there, hundreds of thousands of whom became refugees – was problematic..” – that is really cute – she is somehow overlooking the fact that those people she is referring to, were, in fact, occupiers. Muslims certainly were not the original inhabitants of Israel – the Jews were. Moreover, she is also conveniently overlooking the fact that even in modern history (the twentieth century) it was Jordan that occupied now disputed territories after the fall of Ottoman Empire. But, one really should not be surprised – these thinly veiled anti-Semites are making a living of being anti-Semites, so it is not surprising that her apology is actually adding insult to injury.
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Liron
2:17 am
Oct 28, 2011
Another astounding display of bias from the nation that distinguished itself by carrying out the first expulsion of the Jews. The seeds of hate are so deeply sown in people like Orr, they will never see the “or”. If a so-called journalist is going to opine about anything to do with Israel or Jews, I would suggest they read and understand at least two works. Paul Johnson’s “History of the Jewish People”, and Malcom Hay’s “Europe and the Jews”.
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Merlyn
7:31 am
Oct 29, 2011
Human beings have forgotten what it is to be human and have feelings for their fellow humans. If this were not the case we would not have had slavery, of the black people in particular, and the cruelty to Jews down the ages.
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steve mann
11:49 am
Oct 29, 2011
An anti-Zionist is not necessarily anti-Semitic.
But as sure as eggs are eggs. All anti-Semites are anti Israeli!
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DANIEL GREENFIELD: HIPSTERS, HIPPIES, HOMELESS AND HOPELESS | RUTHFULLY YOURS
3:48 pm
Oct 29, 2011
[...] Jews of racist arrogance for trading a 1000 terrorists for an Israeli POW, she offered an even more ridiculous explanation. Last week, I upset a lot of people by suggesting Zionists saw themselves as “chosen”. My words [...]
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Allen Fredericks
11:51 pm
Oct 31, 2011
Deborah Err
Allen
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Ben
9:11 pm
Nov 05, 2011
The problem with her “apology” is that it really didn’t relate to her insane original thesis. The first two lines, which tangentially address her own stupidity, basically say that she’s not sorry for what he said but how she phrased it (and considering that she went into great detail about the sickening “chosen people” aspect of her story, it’s infuriating that she’s trying to divorce her lack of a thesaurus from her lack of a base of knowledge) and the rest of her bilge has NOTHING to do with that statement either–unless she always circles back to the Hamas view of 1948, and everything that happens in Israel is ultimately entirely about that. There isn’t much difference between how she reacted to criticism and how Arun Gandhi did. Hopefully, her bigotry and idiocy will give her the same career results they did him.
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Gaile
6:52 am
Nov 08, 2011
Deborah Orr’s feeble attempt of an opology was sadly typical of Biased writers. The fact is Israel is a Nation She and others may not like that but ‘Hey” TO BAD. I find it unbelievable in this day and age that if the Nation of Israel is generous to allow 1000 people out of jail at the Request of the Palestinians. To return these terrorists to their families and loved ones as a trade for 1 Israeli soldier, what an excellent attitude to take considering some of them will try to attack Israel again. Now Switch the Process around, 1000 Israelis for 1 Arab soldier. Its never gonna Happen OK !! Be gratefull for small mercies and that this is a good thing. There is to many writers out their who are historically ignorant and love to put a bad light on Israel with their own personal opinions. There is now 10001 people back home with their families, So good luck to them and i hope they live better lives and do good for others instead of harm so i say Shalom, Salaam, and peace. ” just get rid of all the Idiot reporters who stir up trouble with their Anti Semetic Ideas. Gaile
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IsraMan
7:25 pm
Nov 08, 2011
This woman is a RAVING anti-semite! “one can accept Israel’s right to exist”?? wow, thanks a lot! so kind of you. should we be grateful to you for “allowing us” to exist? Do you think you are the emperor of the planet who can give or deny nations the right to exist?
This is the real gem: “while still believing that the manner in which the nation was created – against the wishes of many of the people already living there, hundreds of thousands of whom became refugees – was problematic” Hilarious! Would she be saying the same thing about the United States, Canada, Australia?? These countries totally wiped out other people to make room for themselves. Anyone debating their “right to exist”? Israel accepted a UN partition plan! sick stuff.
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