Goldstone: If I Had Known Then What I Know Now…
April 3, 2011 18:34 by Alex Margolin
Judge Richard Goldstone, head of the infamous UN panel that issued the Goldstone Report in 2009, backtracked on his most serious accusations on Friday.
The Goldstone Report had accused Israel and Hamas of “actions amounting to war crimes, possibly crimes against humanity” during the 2008 Gaza War.
Goldstone’s about-face includes a reversal on the contentious claim that Israel intentionally targeted Palestinian civilians.
Investigations into some 400 incidents from the war, cited by another recent UN report, “indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy,” Goldstone wrote in an op-ed published in the Washington Post:
“I regret that our fact-finding mission did not have such evidence explaining the circumstances in which we said civilians in Gaza were targeted, because it probably would have influenced our findings about intentionality and war crimes.”
Goldstone starkly admitted, “If I had known then what I know now, the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.”
Despite the mea culpa, Goldstone repeated his excuse that his work was hindered by Israel’s refusal to cooperate with his investigation, conceding however, that the UN Human Rights Council, which sponsored his report, has a “history of bias against Israel [that] cannot be doubted.”
But according to Jerusalem Post editor David Horovitz, commenting on Goldstone’s latest revelations, Goldstone should not have been surprised by Israel’s decision not to cooperate with his mission:
To have formally subjected itself to examination by his committee and the institutionally biased UN Human Rights Council that had formed it – a bias which Goldstone now acknowledges in his article – would merely have given his work greater purported credibility.
Notwithstanding that absent formal cooperation, however, the truth about what happened in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009 – the truth that Goldstone now disingenuously claims to have discovered only after he filed his malicious indictment of the IDF and of Israel – was readily available to him at the time.
Israel did informally make the necessary information available to his committee in the shape of detailed reports on what had unfolded. And open sources, honestly evaluated, left no doubt that Hamas was the provocateur, that Hamas was deliberately placing Palestinians in harm’s way, that Hamas was lying about the proportion of combatants among the Gaza dead.
Indeed, Honestreporting first reported on the fallacies and false accusations in the Goldstone Report back in September of 2009 using information that was available to the public. HonestReporting also provided a long list of resources for countering the report, all of which drew on public sources.
Along with accusations of war crimes, Goldstone’s op-ed also puts an end to the dispute over casualty figures.
While the Goldstone Report cited civilian casualty numbers obtained from Hamas, which were considerably higher than the IDF’s figures, Goldstone now admits that “the Israeli military’s numbers have turned out to be similar to those recently furnished by Hamas” (emphasis added), adding however, that Hamas may now be exaggerating the number of terrorists killed by the IDF.
Put simply, the IDF’s figures were correct all along.
But it remains to be seen if the media recognizes that the commonly quoted numbers of “1,400 dead, including mostly civilians” – cited by the Goldstone Report – are inaccurate. The caption for the following image, taken from BBC’s coverage of Goldstone’s revelations, shows that the Beeb has yet to assimilate the new information.
In an exclusive comment to HonestReporting, Hillel Neuer, the executive director of UN Watch, called on the UN to take decisive action in light of Goldstone’s revelations.
Now that the core finding of the Goldstone Report has been discredited by its author, the norms of international law, ethics, and morality require Judge Goldstone to urgently request the UN Human Rights Council to convene a special session to officially repudiate the report and halt its ongoing proceedings to implement it.
An op-ed is not enough. Goldstone must officially inform all other bodies which received his false report: the UN Security Council, the UN General Assembly, the International Criminal Court, and all the 192 UN member states which — based on his recommendations — were officially asked by the world body to open criminal prosecutions of Israeli leaders and officers.
Goldstone must also write to the Swiss government to call off their effort, based on the Goldstone Report, to convene an international conference of the Geneva Convention signatories to condemn Israel. Goldstone will never be able to undo the poisonous anti-Israel libel that he spread around the globe, but as a judge we call on him to do the bare minimum that legal ethics and common sense require.
While most of the mainstream media has covered the story, two of Goldstone’s biggest cheerleaders , The Guardian and The Independent have yet to report on the about-face. In particular, The Guardian’s over-reporting of Israel — as expressed by this map produced by British Views of the World (read more background and signficance) – behooves the paper to follow through.
Goldstone’s commentary was published on Friday, and yet as we go to press, neither paper has picked up on the story.
It is impossible to know exactly what prompted Goldstone to reverse his positions at this time. But one thing is certain: it couldn’t have happened without the many people who refused to accept the Goldstone Report’s false conclusions and continued to fight in the public arena. Everyone who spoke out against the report deserves a share in the credit for bringing the truth to the surface, however delayed.
The fight, however, is far from over. The Goldstone Report has caused great damage since its publication nearly two years ago. It is now up to the media to promote the truth about the Gaza war with the same intensity it promoted the conclusions of the Goldstone Report. And it is up to all of us to hold the media to account to ensure the truth is revealed.
Ernesto
12:48 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Robert,
You use falsehoods. When others showed your lies, now you resort to (as you said) is a true fact (I have to investigate). But let me say that: The arabs started the ethnic cleansing of the jews. Much much before the 1947 and 1948 battles, the arabs, followers of the infamous Mufti of Jerusalem (that later converted in a nazi ally, even living in nazi Berlin) made plenty of attacks against defenseless jewish families in Hebron and other places: This was in 1929 and 1930. So, who started?
We have to mention the expulsion of some 800,000 jews from arab countries.
And the real extermination wars that seven arab countries started against Israel (1948, 1967, 1973). Baruch Hashem the jewish state won all of them, but is curious how do you ignore that fact.
And again if you are a professor (as you said) how don’t you use the logic? If Israel would really be commiting such ugly acts, how is that Gaza population is one of the most rapidly growing all over the world?
You mention The Truman Show et al, but the true is that is you who live in bubble of fantasies (or lies, I’ll not judge without knowledge).
My guess is that you have an excess of hate against jews and Israel, but that can be solved, if you want.
I feel that answering you is a complete waste of time, so my answer is for the other readers of this forum, so some of your lies don’t remain as truth.
And thankyou to Loretta, Alex and other that also show that what you said are lies
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Otillia de Andrade
2:53 am
Apr 21, 2011
I have always wondered about the meaning of the word “muftin.” A word that is used in some european countries to describe a sly, non-relevant, vain, self-centered person, who causes incredible amount of distress, destruction, and harm to others. Now I know for certain. Thank you
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Yaron Goldstein
3:04 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Ethnic cleansing and racism in Israel – TODAY.
Most readers will be surprised or are not aware of the fact that today, ethnic cleansing and a racist reality exist in Israel today against Jews. Yes, that is true!
For example, if you are Jewish, you can’t build, buy or a home in an Arab village. Some people tried it and were driven out by force from those places.
However, if you are Arab, you can build, buy or a home in any place. There are Arabs living in Haifa, Beer Sheva, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Kfar Saba, Raanana and so many other places. Yet no Jews live in any Arab town or village anywhere in Israel.
Now imagine, that there are places in America where Jews are not allowed to live in!!
Also, if you are Jewish and build something without permit, the authorities will demolish it in no time. Yet if you are Arab, it may take the authorities years to do so if at all. There are tens of thousands of illegal Arab homes in Israel!! In fact, the government is acting to legitimize some of there, de facto.
Also talking about cleansing. Palestinians are talking about peace, yet they seek to remove all Jews living in the West Bank as a preliminary condition. If that is not ethnic cleansing, than what is?
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Graeme Levin
3:22 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Yaron is correct.
What’s more if a West Bank Arab sells or rents property to a Jew he is subject to the DEATH PENALTY.
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Loretta
6:33 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Robert Judging from your posts you are on some delusional holodeck somewhere. I would suggest that if you are getting your version of reality from Jim Carrey and The Matrix you might choose to find yourself some professional help.
Your posts are filled with lies and supported by a great deal of empty verbiage.
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Albert Reingewirtz
7:21 pm
Apr 06, 2011
OK Robert! True enough some Israeli villages and town where previously occupied by Arabs. Of course it’s true. The Arab high command included Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Transjordan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan who attacked Israel in order to destroy it and throw the Jews to the sea with the traditional scream of Etbach el Yaoud! (Slaughter the Jews). Many of the Arab residents left following the order of the Arab high command with the promise that they would get everything the Jews left behind. Israel begged Arab to stay. Some of the Arabs stayed and are still today living in their old homes and anywhere else they choose to live in Israel. So, Robert if you think that is not moral, tell us where you live in the US! If you do not live in Manhattan you are living exactly on someone else’s land, Indians that have been dispossessed by force. Israel did not do the same to the Arab. TransJordan with the help of Britain cleansed all the Jews from Judea and Samaria and the old city of Jerusalem where Arab took over Jewish homes, desecrated cemeteries, synagogues while British military watched proud of what they had done for the crown. Sir John Glubb got the right to call himself Sir for what they called a great service for the crown. His service to the crown: He was in charge of the Arab Legion that attempted to cut Israel at the waist to make it un viable. He also is the SOB who conducted the medieval type of siege of Jerusalem where the relative number of fallen was rarely equalled anywhere in the 20th century.
So, Robert when are you leaving the US back wherever you came from according to the moral you demand from Israel you are living on occupied land belonging to Indian. That the land is occupied for 2, 3 centuries doesn’t make it OK just that the crime continues for a longer time.
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Robert
7:38 pm
Apr 06, 2011
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Yaron Goldstein
3:58 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Mr. Robert,
A day in Israel presented to you by the Palestinians peace activists:
An any tank missile was fired on a school bus severely injuring a 16 year old boy.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4053699,00.html
Hamas terrorists planted a bomb in a garbage bin. I blew up amputating the hand of the sanitation services man.
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4053515,00.html
So much for ethnic cleansing.
Yaron
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Albert Reingewirtz
8:15 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Of course you do not answer my question: Where do you live? Another thing. Israel did not remove Arab forcefully like the US did to the Indians or the The TransJordanian with the Help of Britain to the Jews. By the standard you demand from the Jewish state you live on Indian land. All you can do is leave then come back and lecture Israel. Today Arab and Jews in effect live on one Democratic land. What you want is add the Arab refugees that the creators of those refugees, the Arab states refuse to absorb to this day and alone among all the world refugees, the Arab refugees have a UN group dedicated to them only: UNWRA. All other refugees on the average after 10 years have been absorbed in the countries they ended in even if they did not speak the language eat a different food and had another religion. The Arab refugees are speaking Arabic, are mostly Muslims and eat Arabic food like the rest of the people of the states they ended in. They are still in refugee camps fed, educated by your tax Dollars and train in terror under the eyes of the UN managers of those camps. Israel would commit suicide accept those educated in hate of Jews from those camps or from the PA where the propaganda would make the Nazi’s jealous with envy. Robert please! You need help go find a good Psychologist or commit yourself. You are a danger to yourself and other.
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Albert Reingewirtz
8:20 pm
Apr 06, 2011
Of course you chose idiots with the same distorted reality as yours. In 1929 most of the Jews of Hevron have been massacred as some Jews in Jerusalem or elsewhere in Palestine while the British occupiers watched and did not move a finger. Today Jews have returned to Hevron and still almost daily Jews are attacked by Arab terror. Robert please! Seek help!
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Nathan Zafran
12:05 am
Apr 07, 2011
This Robert character is either a dedicated antsemite/anti-Israel bigot or a totally demented moron. Either way he has absolutely no knowledge of the history and facts about the Middle East conflict, and what he quotes can be heard in any sermon in thousands of mosques. Actually, his condition is heart-tearing and quite pathetic. Robert you urgently need treatment.
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Anonymous
6:40 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Robert belongs to a certain class of one-track minded Jew-hating zealots. These types will do, say, and invent anything and everything to cause harm and distress to Jews, anywhere. In his case, he is projecting, in my opinion, his own self-hatred upon Am Yisroel, because it may be the safest way to relieve the unbearable stress of self-loathing he is “hiding and or denying, from himself.
It is probably the case that he has serious issues with his “human” father, and is thus venting his angst, hatred, contempt, and rage, against a “safe target”, symbolic of his relational distress.
Robert needs serious intervention – a good “male” fatherly therapist, to heal his rage, and self-contempt.
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Robert
8:47 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Anonymous,
>>>>Robert belongs to a certain class of one-track minded Jew-hating zealots……
I am exceedingly proud of my Jewish heritage, and think that my Jewish education is the wellspring of morality and decency. I think of myself as a mensch. I think that pride comes from maintaining good morals, regarding how one treats other people. In California, I work constantly with Mexicans and African-Americans, Asians, etc, at a serious, professional level.
>>>>It is probably the case that he has serious issues with his “human” father……..
I adore my father and mother and family, very close to them as a Jewish family should be.
I have to say that I’m amused by all of this reference to therapy and getting professional help, etc. It reminds me of the stories that I learned, as a boy in Hebrew school, of the Soviet Union and how Soviet citizens who fought for justice and truth were treated as mentally ill and sent to psychiatrists, etc. Eventually, the World Psychiatric Association condemned the Soviet Union for it’s abuse of psychiatry for political ends.
I accept and acknowledge ALL of the history of Jewish greatness, from writing the Talmud to capturing the SAM battery in Egypt. It’s all true, and kol hakavod! But at the same time, the story of the Palestinian Nakba is also true, and the Jewish state is built upon land that has strong Muslim and Christian history. The Jewish state has surrounded the Palestinian population and turned them into Bantustans, like in South Africa. That was the full intention, as Ariel Sharon and Raphael Eitan and others clearly said. So if Apartheid was not acceptable to the world in South Africa, then why should it be acceptable in Israel/Palestine? It’s not. The political situation will get worse and worse in the years ahead, because people can see the situation. Over time, there will be Boycotts, Divestment, and Sanctions, for the same reason that sanctions were placed on South Africa.
Finally, I want to ask you, how would your own lives, as Jews, change if Palestinians had voting rights and citizenship? If the Samouni family> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXxL0lg4mxs, and all other West Bankers and Gazans were citizens, what would happen to your life? Would your job change? How would politics be different? How would economics be different? I think that they would be different, but to what degree?
Is it possible that the changes would be no different than other dramatic changes, like the absorption of the Arab Jews, or the ex-Soviet Jews? How would * your * life change?
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Anonymous
3:39 am
Apr 08, 2011
to “robert”:
Robert, besides the assorted emotional, personality, and private issues, you may be also, in my view, attempting to “misrepresent” who you are, and details of your “loving family.” Your feeble attempt at “persuading” anyone who would give you any attention, be it negative or positive, of the “righteousness” of your targeted hatred, thinly veiled, reveals much that you may wish to share.
You are, at heart, an “ideologue.” Your ability to process information is rapaciously frittered by a need to vent your rage against a target you know full well will not demand any kind of accountability for your proffered opinions and deeply embarrassing gaps in your historical knowledge of Hebrew and Jewish History.
The very fact that you consider that “Palestinians” are Arabs, confirms utter ignorance of any opinion you might entertain. “Palestinia” ergo, Palestinians, is the Latin word for Judaea-Samaria, which the Romans used. The Palestinians are JEWS, and the Arabs are ARABS. Their homeland is SAUDI ARABIA.
Rather than insist on continuing “discussing” Jew-hating Ideology, which is hatred based “opinion”, invoking the need to destroy Jews and Israel, do some reading; after you sign up for serious personality disorder based therapy. You should be more concerned with healing yourself, and ridding yourself of self-hatred, than taking on issues about which you are utterly ignorant – it is Deeply embarrassing to read you.
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Robert
3:09 am
Apr 07, 2011
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Yaron Goldstein
8:49 am
Apr 07, 2011
Robert, Zochrot is Yet another extreme leftist organization. Remember, I told you, I leave in a democracy. We even let people who with to destroy us to speak out.
Now recently, Israeli reporters learned that many leftists organizations a being funded by Arab organizations outside Israel. This is how far the propaganda war goes on. An you set there in your leaving room in the US or EU and think that all you read in the web is a fact.
The amazing thing is that those organizations seeking the destruction of Israel have no problems using it’s resources and democracy for their own needs. Destruction means killing all the Jews in Israel or throw them out of there. Make no mistake about this!
There are so many Arab countries, where are those leftists organizations there calling for freedom and human rights, calling for the return of the Jews expelled from their homes? Where are they? Can you find the, on the web? do you ever wonder?
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Albert Reingewirtz
4:13 am
Apr 07, 2011
Knowing a bit of true history would help you know more about the subject you are obsessed with. Why you chose this one, beats me. You do not consider the dispossession of the Indians at all, the Japanese Kuril islands held by Russia since WW II, The Kurds promised their Kurdistan in the 20′s by the society of nation. But you for some reason care for “The Palestinians” a nation invented in the 60′s. Previously they were known as Arab refugees. You can check this out. The predecessor to Arafat you probably think is a great man and not a terrorist with bloody hands; his predecessor Achmed Shukeiri screamed his dismay to the Arab league this way Insisting “We are Arabs!” By the way, if you care so much about refugees. What about the Jewish refugees from all Arab lands and Persia? They were at least a few hundred thousnads more numerous than “The Palestinians. They arrived in Israel with nothing. They were aborbed upon arrival. They lived in tents for a while. I know because in 1950 I went to help in a flooded camp. Jews from Iraq on little iron beds while the water touched their mattresses and their meager possessions. As an aside, “The Palestinians” during WW II were the Jews. They volunteered to join the British army to fight the Nazi’s in The Jewish Brigade. The Arabs? They were pulling for the Nazi’s. Later on they became client state of the USSR. Israel? It’s commando went into Egypt and got a SAM battery. The Battery, a MIG, both in working order all went to the US to help find a solution and stop the downing of US fliers such as Senator McCain’s plane during the Vietnam war. But you would not know that reading the garbage you chose to read.
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Robert
6:48 am
Apr 07, 2011
Albert,
I am 42, and come from the era that I come from. I want to commend you for helping with the Iraqi Jewish refugees in 1950. I believe that Jews have a right to make Aliyah and settle in Eretz Yisrael. But the expulsion of the Palestinians has had an impact far beyond anything that Ben Gurion imagined at the time. I know that at the time, it seemed, morally speaking, like a flea, next to the elephant of the Holocaust and saving the Jews of Europe. However, in the 63 years since the foundation of Israel, the flea has since become a new elephant, and it causes nonstop war.
But the colonial era is over, and over with a vengeance. The formative experience for my life was fighting Apartheid in South Africa in 1985-86. In my life, the US has made significant improvements in race relations. I think that we should challenge ourselves to have at least acceptable, tolerable relations across races. That goes for Palestinians, too.
Take a look at the Samouni family, who lost 29 family members in a drone attack > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXxL0lg4mxs
They look like a family, Albert.
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Graeme Levin
10:17 am
Apr 08, 2011
Robert
Again you show your ignorance and complete disregard for the facts.
In no way can Israeli policies be compared to South African Apartheid.
I was born in SA in 1944 and grew up there and have first hand KNOWLEDGE.
There is simply nothing in common. I don’t have the time to go into a detailed comparison but it is clear you create your own facts as you do regarding Israel.
You mentioned in an earlier post: “The formative experience for my life was fighting Apartheid in South Africa in 1985-86.”
Just what exactly did you do? I was especially active in SA politics at that time and would like to know your last name as I don’t recall any “Robert” being active in fighting Apartheid. Or perhaps you simply did it from a comfortable home California reading and promoting propaganda as you are doing regarding Israel.
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Albert Reingewirtz
8:22 am
Apr 07, 2011
Robert being 42 you have no real idea of what happened. I survived the Shoa alone of my family. Arab did not suffer expulsion from the Jews in Israel. On the other hand no Jewish community remains in any Arab land. Some Jewish communities such as Baghdad, Persia, Alexandria preceded the Arab invasion by over 2,000 years. Gone as if they had never existed. The Jews of Alexandria translated the Tanach to Greek. It is the only honest and true translation and still in use in the Orthodox church, the Septuagint. The Jews of Iraq wrote the Talmud. Both gone! From Morocco all the way to Persia a giant ethnic clean up of the Jews occurred and you speak of expulsion of Arabs from Israel even though it did not occur. Israel has one third of it’s citizen that are Arabs. They vote, are elected. They serve in the foreign service. They are judges. One Arab is a judge in the Supreme court of Israel. Another Arab judge read the sentence against a former President of Israel. An Arab with the rights of Israeli Arabs in any Arab country is a fiction of the imagination if someone believes it. Meanwhile a death sentence to any Arab selling land to a Jew exist in the PA while Israeli Arabs can buy real estate and live anywhere in Israel. The Arab propaganda is severe and people are so stupid that they believe that what is white is black and day is night. What about all the businesses , the homes, the synagogues, the holy places left behind when the Jewish refugees arrived with just the cloth on their back? What about zero support from the UN while Arab refugee are help by the UN to the third generation today and no one knows when this support will end because Arabs control a major voting block at the UN and they refuse to absorb the refugees they created as a weapon against Israel and morons like you bite on this hook and sinker. The amount of fallen to protect Israel in wars to erase it is a burden no other country ever sacrificed and you continue with your garbage. Please get yourself help!
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Ernesto
7:07 pm
Apr 08, 2011
To Loretta, Maggie, Robert and many others that answered to Robert.
I really think that Robert needs urgent therapy, but therapy can help you only if you are willing to make changes. And I don’t believe he will accept that.
I said in a previous post that, answer to Robert is a waste of time. And that I answered, so his lies don’t look as truth.
Assuming he is realy a human being (and not a group of jewish-haters, acting as “Robert”), he spents lots of time looking for what he try to sell as reliable information. And he believes on that info, as a just converted person.
Finally he was many times confronted to do some good to humanity going to help to places where there is a real need. However he is completely deaf.
Obviously he is in more trouble of what I imagined.
And regarding Goldstone itself, the options presented by Morris Abadi (São Paulo – Brazil) are really good ones.
Shabbat Shalom to everybody
Am Israel Chai !
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Moshe Flam
8:21 pm
Apr 07, 2011
I still think it was an April Fools Day joke, by the Washington Post.
We are yet to hear a word from Goldstone.
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Robert
9:04 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Moshe,
Goldstone more or less retracted his retraction. He said,
“As appears from the Washington Post article, information subsequent to publication of the report did meet with the view that one correction should be made with regard to intentionality on the part of Israel,” the judge said. “Further information as a result of domestic investigations could lead to further reconsideration, * but as presently advised I have no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time. * ”
* no reason to believe any part of the report needs to be reconsidered at this time. *
In the op-ed, he said that
“We know a lot more today about what happened in the Gaza war of 2008-09 than we did when I chaired the fact-finding mission appointed by the U.N. Human Rights Council that produced what has come to be known as the Goldstone Report. If I had known then what I know now, * the Goldstone Report would have been a different document. *”
* the Goldstone Report would have been a different document. *
The op-ed and yesterday’s statement are very different.
Basically, Goldstone was pressured relentlessly from within the South African Zionist Federation. This article explains what happened. http://forward.com/articles/136818/.
After his op-ed blew up in his face, he retracted his retraction. The judge turned out to be human, and subject to human pressure. He has damaged his credibility as a judge, but the real tragedy is the conflict between Zionist pressure and the truth.
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Morris Abadi (São Paulo - Brazil)
9:30 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Mr Goldstone, with his pseudo retracting, expected:
1 – to be forgiven by the jews from Israel, from South Africa and from all around the world
2 – to be invited to some Pessach Seder
3 – us to think he was a poor naive and innocent guy, driven and betrayed by circunstances
4 – us to blame on the other members of the finding fact mission
Mr Goldstone harmed Israel, and the jews from all around the world for a long time. He whitewashed Hamas and their 10.000 rockets launched against Israel.
He is a hypocrite, and he does not deserve forgiveness. What about doing something for real? As we are used to say over here, a blank sheet of paper accepts anything. Even his falsehoods.
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Albert Reingewirtz
9:09 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Robert, I am ashamed that you are a Jew, if you are not lying about it. So you live in California, a land conquered from Indian and Mexico no matter how you look at it. Indians in reservations. Yet what bothers you is Jews building homes in Judea that was liberated from the land grab by Transjordan when again it attacked Israel in order to destroy it. You care about the Arab refugees now renamed “Palestinians.” But never a word about all the Jews and their ancient communities that escaped all Arab states leaving everything behind. Then you have the hutzpah to demand that Israel absorb group of Arabs who have openly published charters declaring that their aim is the destruction of Israel and replacing it with a Islamic state. The was I look at you is this You want so much to belong to something not from your own people that you advocate Israel’s destruction just those Arab terrorists in their charters. If you want justice more Jew lost property in Arab land that the Arab refugees lost willingly listening the Arab High Command. Those who didn’t are still in Israel as full citizens. Those that left just fired and anti-tank missile at a school bus. You are just like the rest of 80% of US Jews who voted for the know anti- Semite Obama. You and all of them truly need urgent help.
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Robert
10:08 pm
Apr 07, 2011
Albert,
I’m not driven by the need to be part of the Palestinians. When I opposed South African Apartheid, I was not driven by the need to be part of black South Africans. I’m just driven by common decency toward one’s fellow man. Apartheid just fills me with revulsion, then and now. It says, “I don’t acknowledge your humanity, even the babies.”.
Wars happen throughout the world, but most come to an end. Yugoslavia’s war started 43 years after Israel, and is long since over! Wars need to end. Keeping wars going for one’s own racial comfort zone is not acceptable, it’s illegitimate. Since Israel has decided not to accept two-state solutions like the Geneva Accord, then we are moving toward a one-state solution. This was the collective political decision of Israel, because they are drunk on power. But the power will come to an end.
Regarding keeping the identity of Israel and Palestine separate, check out Fred Schlomka’s article. Schlomka runs Green Olive Tours, http://www.toursinenglish.com/ , and he is in Israel and the Palestinian Territories every day. He knows about bridging the gap, through his personal involvements. Check out the idea for a Middle Eastern Union. Here is the link to his article. http://www.counterpunch.org/schlomka03182011.html . Now this is a fair plan.
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Robert
5:15 am
Apr 08, 2011
OK Albert, Nathan, Yaron, Anonymous,
I think that I’ll wrap it up, I’ve said my piece.
In a quiet moment, take some time to review the links that I sent. Everything that I linked to is true. Think of yourself as a researcher for a History Dept, or working for AMAN, Mossad, CIA, GCHQ. The reason why I say this is that a lot of this Palestine material is from former intelligence officers who retired, disgusted with the situation, and they spoke out publicly about it. For example, Yossi Alpher is former senior Mossad official, who now researches and writes for http://www.bitterlemons.org. Diane Mason, formerly of GCHQ (British signals intelligence) writes for lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com .
It makes sense that this Palestine material comes from former intelligence officials because their job is security, and they have spent their careers looking at the cause and effect of the Israel-Palestine conflict. This is serious stuff; no one wants to see this conflict go on forever. Regards, Robert
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Yaron Goldstein
7:07 am
Apr 10, 2011
Robert, how can you be so one sided? You only listen to what you want and selectively choosing the information you want to listen to. You sit there in California, a world apart and choose to believe all those things you read on the web, and ignore what does not fit into you theory.
Life is not black and white! You choose to believe the ethnic cleansing stories because they are black and white. You can clearly say who is good and who is bad. That is too simplistic. That fits a child, not a 42 year old man.
You want black and white, I give it to you. In the 1940sThe Brits wanted to pull out of the Mid east and they were running out of time. They handed over key holdings to the Arabs who were preparing a mass slaughter in the Jewish communities all over. The Jews knew that and started to prepare. Te UN made an offer, but the Arabs said no! We will kick them out, no compromise! Guess what, one guy wins, the other lost and run away. Now the looser tried in so many ways to fight back and lost again and again. Now the looser discovered the media and the web and is using it hide his dictatorships an murders.
But, the people of the mid east had enough. Look at Syria, Egypt and the rest. The Arabs had enough of listening to the lies of their leaders. They don’t want to hear about Israel and the Palestinians no more. Arabs want to live a normal life.
Can you open you eyes and see history in the making?! Move away from all your Wiki and blogs and all that stuff. Look at history in the face and see the truth!
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Maggie Cinge
12:46 pm
Apr 08, 2011
Robert:
I hope that, especially as a Jew, you will take the time to learn the truth about your people. And I think that I speak for most people here- it is frustrating and depressing to witness your vehement attack on Israel that is not based on fact. You are hurting Israel, and you are hurting the Jewish people. To support the very people whose goal is (and historically has been) to exterminate the Jews and wipe Israel off the map is hypocritical, wrong, and disturbing no matter who tells you things or where you get your “information”.
Perhaps you could devote your time and energy on another part of the world where atrocities are real. That way, you wouldn’t be betraying your people, and you’d be doing some honest to goodness good.
Another suggestion might be to visit the Tel Aviv Museum to try to understand why a homeland for the Jewish people is so important. You would also get to see what an open, vibrant, and welcoming people Israeli’s are to all who visit.
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Nathan Zafran
6:33 pm
Apr 08, 2011
Robert,
my final posting to you. Quoting “facts” by Ilan Pappe is a sick joke. For years this demented character was a professor in Haifa University (20% non-Jewish students, does this indicate “Apartheid”?), and his anti-Israeli tirades became unbearable and nauseating. When asked if he is so willing to lie against Israel and he explicitly replied that if it harms Israel he definitely would. He was pressured to leave and he went to work in the university of Exeter where his opinions were very well received and popular. I believe he is now in Oxford, (alongside another raving bigot, Avi Shleim), this being another Muslim-financed center of hatred and anarchism. Taking his opinions as facts indicates the low morals and ethical principles of the quoter. Robert go and get treatment, you are disturbed.
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Loretta
9:20 pm
Apr 08, 2011
In one way “Robert” really does represent his side very well: he’s not at all amenable to truth, justice or reason. Having watched him squat on this comment section for days and trumpet vacuous, empty propaganda I’ve lost a profound amount of respect for the Palestinian Arabs. Why? Because if their “cause” is really based on these lies and subversions of reality and they can find nothing better to justify themselves, then they are truly morally bankrupt.
I suppose a group (Hamas) that targets innocent civilians and hides behind women and children really can find nothing better to justify themselves than lying.
I would sincerely hope that there are better people within the Palestinian society and that this is not really representative of it.
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Mike Lampard
3:07 pm
Apr 10, 2011
The disingenuous about face of Goldstone on his report does not impress me. In fact, nothing wil now, and it isan example of the UN’s trusting in lies and deceit that makes it right to point the finger at all Governments represented in The UN and the evil predjudisious attitude of populations world over. The Un andthe whole of world society is based on utter lies and deceit. Is it any wonder therefore, that Godlstone is well and truly part of that garbage?
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b.kline
4:38 pm
Apr 10, 2011
It seems this section of what should be an important part of a very disturbing situation regarding Goldstone and the betrayal by him of his own kind, has turned into a circus with a performing seal named Robert. This is not the Robert show this is a serious and heartbreaking situation of what one man, a Capo has done to his own people. The conversation between yet another ignoramus and those willing to put him back on track is diverting moral behavior away from what is important to Jews, Israel and the whole of our survival in a world that is fast being consumed by hatred and beastial resentment.
Let us not lose sight of what we are fighting for in our quest of survival. Let us concentrate on what we have always been, better than those who are eating themselves up with jelously at our abilities.
The world is full of Roberts and their ilk so leave them to slither around in their man-made pits of despair and disollusionment.
Robert, I have just this one thing to say to you. If your father did the right thing when you were a boy, let it be that you are reminded of exactly who you are each time you frequent the bathroom!
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Robert
7:28 pm
Apr 10, 2011
Yaron, b.kline,
Yaron’s comment looked like the beginnings of a discussion, so I’ll write back. b.kline, others. I’m writing some important material, and I got scatalogical and psychological (I need therapy, etc.) responses. Please stay civil, I’m a serious person, care about Judaism and the Jewish people.
The realization that the West Bank (just the West Bank, Graeme) is sliding into Apartheid is *not mine*.
In Nov. 2007, PM Ehud Olmert wrote, “”If the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights (also for the Palestinians in the territories), then, as soon as that happens, the State of Israel is finished,” Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Haaretz Wednesday,”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/olmert-to-haaretz-two-state-solution-or-israel-is-done-for-1.234201
In Feb. 2010, Former PM Ehud Barak wrote “”As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic,” Barak said. “If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/03/barak-apartheid-palestine-peace
In April, 2010, Likud Speaker of the Knesset Reuven Rivlin said “Rivlin said: “I would rather Palestinians as citizens of this country over dividing the land up.”
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-official-accepting-palestinians-into-israel-better-than-two-states-1.287421
This is the discussion that is going on in Jewish communities in the United States, those who are aware what is going on. The United States and the American Jewish community is a champion of democracy above anything else. If you want a sense of how the younger American Jewish community is feeling about Israel right now, please read http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=3840 .
Finally, you are all my * landsman *. I wouldn’t bother with this if I didn’t care about Israel. But real democracy is non-negotiable. Democracy must be worth of the name.
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