Weekly Question: Is the Israeli Government Press Office right to sanction journalists who participate in the flotilla to Gaza?
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June 27, 2011
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As Gilad Shalit approaches five years in Hamas captivity, how far should Israel go to bring him home?
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David Feder
4:45 pm
Jul 05, 2011
Albert, I agree with everything you write except the part about HaShem. There is far more to the Torah than simple narrative or historical record, and Jews writing about Jews in a Jewish nation several thousand years ago did not give them the power of detailed prognostication that is in Torah. As I wrote earlier, 6,000,000 in smoke is horror beyond the mind’s capability to grasp, yet a reread of Devarim will explain it. We might not like the explanation, and think it is cruel and horrible, but the fact remains, He did precisely as He said He would, right up to our redemption from the Pit and restoration of Eretz Yisrael on the heels of the Shoah. I think the hardest part of believing in G-d is that we are forced to believe that sometimes, He’s a real jerk.
But again, all else you write is spot-on. I grew up in Texas in the 1960s. From anti-Semitism, I know. Not the German kind, but the constant rejection and petty cruelties and never fitting in I know well. Beatings, shovings, rock throwing attacks and turning to authorities for help only to have them echo the nastiness of your tormentors and heap more abuse on the pile — from that, I know. Still, the very worst anti-Semitism I have experienced is that of Jew against Jew. And it’s why I don’t hate the Muslims: They are very clear about their intentions. It’s the craven, silky slimy politicians I loathe and their lap-dog journalist and intelligentsia toadies who disseminate their propaganda to get that pat on the head. The Thomas Friedmans, the Noam Chomskys and the traitors associated with Peace Now and all their ilk I have trouble finding respect for, their Kapo mentality makes it awfully hard for me to adhere to my “v’ahavta l’re’acha k’mochah” admonishments.
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Albert Reingewirtz
6:22 pm
Jul 05, 2011
Mr. Feder, “The Holocaust” was a sacrifice to God in the temple. Since you read some Torah you must know that this was a sacrifice done not for consumptions by the priests but it was to be totally consumed by the fire and nothing but ashes remaining. The horror of someone considering that my parents at the young age of 40 burned completely and their ashes are a offering to God is abhorrent to me and to most Jews who know Jewish religion. Thus we call the 6,000,000 “The Shoa,” in fact probably the biggest disaster to our nation since the destruction of the Temple and the exile from Judea, our home land now renamed The West Bank to deny Jews connection to their homeland including Jerusalem. You are adding fire to my disgust claiming we had it coming since God predicted it.
I am jealous of US Jews who only experienced minor anti- Semitic rants, a bomb here or there. They never needed to uproot and flee and get help from other Jews fearing it could happen to them. US Jews have lost what it meant to be a Jew for 2 millennia because you have lost the fear and attached to this you have in effect lost the need to help fellow Jews. Israel to you US Jews is a burden an embarrassment, something you can’t fathom, A Jew with a gun in hand defending himself from effort to exterminate his nation. In some ways I am jealous. I non-longer have the nightmare of boots going up stairs waiting for a knock on the door. But I still wake up at night thinking about my parents, the apartment and of course Obama wanting to take away Jerusalem our eternal capital never anyone else’s capital for the last 3,000 years at least. That keeps me awake at night. I will always be jealous of US Jews for their innocence. Yet I am furious at them for them telling Israel what is good for them or particularly for voting for Obama. This from an ex- long time Democrat.
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Israel Horowitz
12:21 am
Jul 14, 2011
Sir; you can can explain, ameliorate, mollify or try to justify the holocaust to anybody in any way for any reason but not to me. It was beyond description in any concept. I there fore enjoy living with my own sense of hate and disbelief, all for my own reasons. I have read many books of how, where, what, and why after all it is baloney. You have a better day.
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David Feder
7:05 pm
Jul 05, 2011
Again, you are absolutely right and I agree with all you write. (And BTW, I, too, am an ex-Democrat — 9/11 changed me, as it should have all Americans. Sadly, it did not. As I said, I didn’t vote for Obama Hussein and I will not vote for him.) So really, you and I are in complete agreement on everything except the existence of G-d. I take Him in a “good with the bad” vein b/c He gave us free will, He gave us the tools to strive toward good and that He did not intervene when free will ran amok is horrific. As I said, He sometimes is a jerk, at least to our way of thinking.
To describe my reading as a “we had it coming” attitude is a bit too, well, anthropomorphical in its approach to G-d. As I wrote, my commentary in an editorial a few years ago met with the same reaction from some survivors (one of my survivor friends — gone now, Oleyha haShalom — said she understood me perfectly, and she was not orthodox but went through 5 camps, 3 of them death camps). Yet the Chief Rabbi wrote the same thing. What I am doing is taking the words of Devarim and pointing out how they match the Jewish experience, and do so in a prognosticative manner. “If you do A, B and C then D, E and F will happen, but so too, G will follow.” I can see a person of intellect HATING G-d, but denying His existence, I just cannot wrap my head around that one. Since you and I are in synch on so much else, it looks as if this will have to be the one thing on which we agree to disagree.
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Albert Reingewirtz
7:43 pm
Jul 05, 2011
Mr.Feder, as a 10 year old survivor I had arrived to the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to exist and he did nothing for Jews to survive. I concluded that I was too old to believe in childish beliefs. After the war I grew up in Jewish orphanages. Blaise Pascal dictum (Hamavdil bein Kodesh lechol) declared: “Go on your knees and pray. Soon you too will believe in God.” Everybody prayed in the orphanage and later I became the Chazan. Away from the orphanage I was again free to think for myself and soon I again lost the childish belief in a God. It was very hard to do and it took time. Try to imagine although true that The whole of the Bible was written by men. Then try to find a proof that can’t be denied that God created all we see. I tried, oh how I tried not to lose what was grafted on me in the orphanage! A God is an impossibility. It exists only for Rabbi’s getting an income from foolish believers.
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David Feder
9:03 pm
Jul 05, 2011
something I have always found interesting with atheists is that they bring exactly as little proof of the non-existence of G-d to the table as fundamentalists bring proof. I also am amazed at how the atheist’s mind is closed so much more tightly than the fundamentalist’s. For this I turn to the archaeologist’s credo: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” If you haven’t become completely closed off to hearing another person’s viewpoints (say, isn’t that what you accused Laddie of?) then I would recommend a very easy but intriguing read, “Beyond a Reasonable Doubt” by Rabbi Shmuel Waldman. Heck, even if you read only the first half dozen chapters, it presents some basic food for thought. Nothing fancy or deep, mind you, but stuff to make you contemplate.
Me, in my own life I’ve had way too many instances of intervention from somewhere not of this plane to keep me from believing. And I recognize that, with prayer, sometimes it’s not that G-d doesn’t hear us but that his answer is, “No.”
PS: I am certain you got carried away with your subjectivity and didn’t mean it, but it is exceedingly rude to refer to someone’s belief in G-d as “childish” and “foolish.” Humanism demands at least respect for another’s beliefs. I wrote earlier of my respect for the honesty of the Muslims’ beliefs — I disagree with them, believe them corrupt and I would like to see them excised from Israel like the cancer I believe they are, but I respect their belief that Allah is One True G-d and Mohammed is His Prophet. Respect does not preclude acceptance of impositions or confrontation or belligerence. And respect is not at all acquiesence. Nor is it agreement. But what it is, is necessary. When we denigrate and dehumanize another’s religion, we become no better than our tormentors.
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Albert Reingewirtz
9:55 pm
Jul 05, 2011
There is no difference between Mohammed or Moses as a prophet. Simply there is no such a thing, period! You have it backward. You assert that there is a God, so you have the obligation to show me this God. I have no obligation to prove anything whatsoever. So I can continue saying I do not belief in God or Gods or prophets until you show me. Your point of vue is well known to me because for a time in my teen I was steep in Jewish religion. Everyday pondering things like to who does the vestment belong when both of the people found it. Or who’s egg’s is it when a chicken lays an egg over the fence in a neighbor’s field. At 13 I was studying the size and color of a blood stain to decide if a woman was pure or not while having no idea what they were talking about. I was clueless. In my time there were no writing from Waldman’s or shmalman’s we studied the sources: The Torah, Pirkey Avot, The Gemara… I know every argument you can bring to the table and none stands without a proof for the existence of this purported God. Jewish religion requires that every Jew learns to ask questions. The religion never say some questions are forbidden. So start asking questions and don’t take ready answers for an answer because usually they are wrong. Test them like I did. Go through the terrible times of starting to doubt and then be free. You too can do it if and only if you do not look for answers when there are none. Those Waldeman’s and Schmalman’s get their income from gullible Jews. It is not rude at all to call belief in God a childish belief as it is not rude to call a belief in the tooth fairy a childish belief. It is just the description of those beliefs.
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David Feder
12:41 am
Jul 06, 2011
Albert, with all due respect, you wrote not one single word that responds to anything I wrote. For the record, I’m not trying to convince you of the existence of G-d, I’m mostly responding to what I see as astonishing intolerance on your part, astonishing because you have been the victim of the very worst intolerance shown humans in all of history. I respect your beliefs the very same way I respect those of Muslims and Christians with their cult of death and Hindus and everyone else. I just thought it would stand to reason that a reasonable intellect would tender the same respect. You are a deep and emotional man and have lived through so much and I enjoy our dialogue, but you truly seem incapable of opening your mind to a belief that differs from yours even enough to accord it legitimacy as an alternate view. There are no alternatives to your viewpoint, are there? Not a case of black and white for you, simply black (or white — I’m not applying psychological import to these tones). A paralytically closed mind when it comes to someone else’s beliefs and feelings — the very right of someone of different beliefs and feelings to receive your respect. Very sad, very sad. Your scars run truly deep, my friend. I hope there are at least some elements of wonder and depth and happiness in your life. If you wish to carry on our conversation beyond this forum, since we’ve strayed so very far from the original topic and are taking up our fellow editorialists’ time and space, contact me at davidfeder@rocketmail.com and write to me anytime.
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Albert Reingewirtz
1:02 am
Jul 06, 2011
Mr. Feder you are serving me warmed up response by any “believer” faced by someone not a believer. “Open your mind!” is the usual fare. “Have respect for my religion.” I have a great love for the rituals of the Jewish religion and miss the capability of praying with the rest of the Minian. I can’t! I am non-longer “believer” although I was one in my teens and beyond. Gave you ever considered that in fact it is you who is not open minded refusing to consider the horrible prospect for you that in fact there is no God. That it is exactly the same kind of claim as the tooth fairy, a childish belief.
You lack the courage to ask the questions needed to realize the truth. I did. It was hard and it shook my world view to the core. Today I feel great having regained the wisdom of the 10 year old child I was once.
Mr. Feder face it: Yseve thech gournisht helfen!
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rick geiger
1:50 am
Jul 06, 2011
Quite a good discussion between Mr. Feder and Mr. Reingewirtz. I am one of those people that Albert thinks is childish, as I have an unquestioned faith in G_d. My wife Vicki died of lung cancer a few years ago, she was only 50 and was truly an angel and was my entire life. We were married for 30 years and before we got married she went through a full and very extensive orthodox conversion process and in fact she was and is the by far the best Jew I have ever known. When she was sick I was very very PO’s at G_d because it made no sense whatsoever that a beautiful soul like her should be put through such torture and lose her life when every I see people that in my mind are better candidates for early retirement. A month or so before she died I could not contain my anger and I said the GD in front of her, she told me to leave the room and that if I was ever to say that again I could stay out of the room. At the time she was writhing in pain. She was always teaching me lessons like that. We have 3 children (adults now) and they are still awe of their mother. What a blessing it was to be married to her. And because of my overwhelming anguish at her death I searched I was completely out of control personally, and only my job as a solo practitioner attorney kept me from the evil of suicide. But from that I was blessed with a Partner in Torah that led me to more study and a stronger faith, so now I work on building my emuna every day; this is also a blessing thanks to Vicki and Hashem. Before she was sick I always thought that my work and efforts controlled things, now I know better. People that lack faith in God, it seems to me, substitute it with a faith in human intellect, as if it is omniscient. Well, empirically we know that is not true. Our halacha is very very important, but it not nearly as important as emuna and gratitude to Hashem for every daily miracle. Love your fellow Jews take joy in daily life and let Hashem do His will, in time when Moshiach arrives, then we can discuss again. Blessed is the Name of His Glorious Kingdom for All Eternity.
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David Feder
3:00 am
Jul 06, 2011
Albert, I think you missed the part where I said I grew up predominantly secular and uncommitted. You also make some huge presumptions. I will be succinct: Grown-ups don’t consider the beliefs of others “childish” or cowardly (re: your saying I lack courage). At 76 (you wrote you were 10 at the end of the war) you should by now be mature enough to have just basic common courtesy and respect for others. Yes, you have been through Hell and back, several times, so you have merit I will never attain. But if you take one thing away from our discussion I am hoping it will be the need to be gracious and respectful to and of others. Name-calling sways no discussions your way. And if you are attempting to illuminate, you will not do so by throwing a dark blanket of derision on those whom you wish to see the light.
Again, feel free to continue via my e-mail. Rick, you wrote a truly touching story, one which makes me feel less guilty for co-opting this discussion board for Albert’s and my swapping of opinion.
Shalom all!
David
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Richard Salcer
10:08 pm
Jul 13, 2011
No.
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Steve Mann
11:28 am
Jul 14, 2011
It really dose not matter water Israel dose- She`s dammed if she dose and dammed if she dose not- and that go`s for any thing-
Israel excels in assisting Haiti after the earthquake- Jenny Tonge and others then accsue her of harvesting body parts from the dead.
Bob Geldoff actually praise Israel for the work it is doing in drought ridden Africa- That I read in a Jewish paper- seen it any where else!
So Israel do what ever you think is in your interest- for you will get no thanks for your innovations or your humanitarian quests-
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Beverly Kurtin
9:13 pm
Jul 14, 2011
1. Holocaust denial is a mental disease.
2. Atheists have the right to exist.
3. Most atheists I have met do not have mental disease.
4. Most Holocaust deniers believe in Gd.
5. I’ll let the above stand for what it says.
Jews in general and Israel in particular can do nothing right in the eyes of those who are guilty of the mental disorder of antiSemitism. It is not yet listed as a mental disorder, but it should be. As mentioned by a previous commentator, Israel rushes a field hospital to Haiti and are the “lie” is that they are doing it to steal organs. There has not been one single individual who has been found to have lost an organ. That means nothing to people with the disease; anything we do as a people must, in the realm of their disease, be wrong.
General Dwight Eisenhower had every photographer possible take pictures of the Holocaust so that in the days to come nobody would be able to deny the Holocaust. The pictures exist. The mentally ill look at the pictures the General ordered and say, “Well, there are only a hand full of the dead who probably died of disease, not gas chambers, there is no evidence of gas chambers, crematories…so how could it have happened?”
Shutting one’s eyes while looking at evidence is the only way to deny the proof. Only a person who is without an operating brain could do that; they are sick and ought to be placed in a mental health facility and perhaps be forced to undergo shock therapy until they are cured.
If an individual sprinkled poison on food, they would be arrested for attempted murder or, Gd forbid for successful murder.
If that same person poisons another individual’s MIND, however, it is an unpunished crime. Assuming that one person poisons one hundred other people and they poison another hundred minds…soon you have millions of people who are walking around with a mental disorder that until now has been untreatable.
That is a situation no sane government would permit.
Draw your own conclusion.
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H. Laddie Schnaiberg
11:27 pm
Jul 14, 2011
We have come a long from discussing the topic of journalists on the flotilla going to Gaza. I would like to discuss a topic which I learned about today, Apparently Palestinians tried to enter Israel by airplane. They were arrested on the suspicion that they entered Israel for an illegal purpose. What bothers me is not their arrest, but the fact that the Israeli Government prevented lawyers from seeing these people in order to advise them of their rights and to provide legal counsel to defend them. Netanyahu “proudly” announced that it was he who authorized this prevention. Now democratic governments are emphatically stating Israel is not respecting the U.N declaration of Human Rights. In the U.S. and Canada, the action of the Israeli Government would be declared illegal and would be quashed because of the Bill or Charter of Rights. The same result would happen in Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and France. An accused, no matter how heinous a crime he is suspected of having committed, is entitled to be represented by counsel and if he cannot afford one, the state will provide at the state`s expense..
By this action, the Israeli Government proves that is no better the the 22 Arab States who also disrespect the U.N declaration of Human Rights and where decisions are decided before trials begin.The majority of the members of the Israeli Knesset have warned lawyers not to challenge the law in court because the law is essential. These members are acting as though they were members of sham parliaments in the Arab World. Happily, Israeli lawyers have shown no fear of these members and the law has been challenged in Court. I hope one day the Supreme Court of Israel will declare this law unconstitutional and that the Israeli government of Mr. Netanyahu and the Knesset acted illegally
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steve mann
12:15 pm
Jul 15, 2011
As I have previously said-
“It really dose not matter water Israel dose- She`s dammed if she dose and dammed if she dose not- and that go`s for any thing-
Israel excels in assisting Haiti after the earthquake- Jenny Tonge and others then accsue her of harvesting body parts from the dead.
Bob Geldoff actually praise Israel for the work it is doing in drought ridden Africa- That I read in a Jewish paper- seen it any where else!
So Israel do what ever you think is in your interest- for you will get no thanks for your innovations or your humanitarian quests”-
So your comment, whilst making common sense has no bearing on the way the UN for example views Israel.
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Albert Reingewirtz
11:43 pm
Jul 14, 2011
Laddie you invent as you go. Bravo! Every country has the right to deny entry to anyone not particularly peaceful or coming in with nefarious aims. The US always did that even for immigrants. Elis Island is infamous for using supposed psychology testing immigrants in English, a language they did not know. For this the US invented a new psychological term: Moron. Jews, Southern Europeans were the targets to be labeled morons and put back in the ships they came in. Refusing entry by a country is happening everywhere, even today in the USA. You will have a hard time proving that Israel is as bad politically, socially as any Arab state. A fifth of Israeli citizens are in fact Arabs with full rights while no Jews remain in any Arab state. They had to flee for their life and most were absorbed on arrival in Israel. While the Arab refugees created by Arab states while attempting to destroy Israel are paid for by the west while Arab state refuse them citizenship and they are still in camps 63 years later.
If it was illegal to refuse entry to Israel you can bet that someone in Israel would have tried in court to stop it because Israel is a state with the rule of law above all. Consider the fact that Israeli Arabs have rights that no Arab in Arab country can dream of having.
So, tell Laddie where is this hatred of Israel coming from? Was your mother startled by a snake while pregnant with you or is it something more insidious?
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David Feder
2:31 am
Jul 15, 2011
OMG, c’mon, Laddie!!! Please imagine what would happen if any Jew tried to enter Saudi Arabia, Syria or most any Arab country. I was offered a press trip to Malaysia and when I told the sponsors I was Jewish they said it would take a slew of special forms and specific, signed ministry permission letters to get me in. In 1989 I tried to get into Iraq on a journalist visa. no go — I’m a Jew. Hell, Mauritius denied entry to Jews. So before you dive into Jewish self-loathing and Israel-bashing where people will mistakenly believe you are a traitor to your own kind, think of the double standard you are applying here. I have never come through Lod that there were not Arab Muslims in line with everyone else. To this day, I have never seen anyone treated unfairly or even differently by Israeli security. They are the best in the world for a number of reasons. I am proud of the security staff in Israel — proud as a Jew, proud as a human being and proud as a frequent traveler. Knee-jerk liberalism is not only not warranted here, it is not a luxury Jews can afford in general. You can leave the Israel bashing to those outside of our family.
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Beverly Kurtin
3:19 am
Jul 15, 2011
First, to the individual who had the chutzpah to compare Israel with any of the Arab countries may need a good psychologist before he can understand his errors. ANYONE who attempt to unlawfully infiltrate another nation is going to be treated as a hostile should be treated. There is a sickness going around that wants to “Free Gaza.” Israel gave them their freedom in 2005, going so far as to forceably remove Jews from their homes.
And then those wonderful Arabs repaid Israel for walking away from land they had conquered, by giving Israel the gift of ten thousand rockets that killed, maimed or wounded scores of Israelis who wanted nothing more than to live in peace.
Then Israel finally went back in and very nicely repaid them for their magnificent gifts.
Hey, bud, virtually every Arab country is apartheid and Judenfrei: No Jews Allowed. Someone mentioned that those “poor Arabs” are still in “camps.” Steer stool! They are living in cities and towns. When you say camp, it brings up images of tents…there are none.
Yes, most Arabs are living in poverty. WHOSE FAULT IS THAT? The Arabs receive BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN AID AND NOT ONE CENT GOES TOWARD IMPROVING THE ARAB’S LIVES.
Israel FEEDS them. Go to Gaza and look at their well-stocked grocery stores. Don’t believe the Arab’s lies. ARABS LIE TO INFIDELS. It is in their phony baloney “holy book.” It overflows with the command to lie to those who are not Muslims. They are the scum of the earth. Every man, woman and child is an enemy of democracy and freedom. Get hold of a copy of Alan Dershowitz’s Book, “The Case For Israel.” If you have a Kindle, you can be reading it in a few moments.
Just today, my first son’s birthday (he’s 48 today) it hit me like a ton of bricks. antiSemitism is a mental disease exactly the same kind of mental disorder that causes some people to deny the Holocaust. There is no logic in hating Jews simply because they ARE Jews and there has to be some kind of mental gymnastics to be able to deny the obvious.
General Dwight Eisenhower had as many photographers take pictures of the Holocaust because he KNEW that people would deny that the wholesale murder of human beings would be denied. For those with healthy minds, some may choose to block out the realities they witnessed; the shock is similar to PTSD; witnesses are so traumatized that they attempt to block out what they have seen, but they do not deny that it happened. Combine the mental disorder that make people anti Semitic with the mental disease of Holocaust denial and you have some very sick individuals.
The hatred of Israel is yet another mental disease. Arabs have perhaps the most virulent strain of this disease. Their hatred is almost genetic, so deeply is it implanted in them that it seems that they are born with a built-in hatred for Jews. Of course, what really happens is they are taught from the time they born they are CAREFULLY TAUGHT TO HATE JEWS. Jews are NOT taught to hate. My distaste for all things Arab have come through what THEY have done to my people. I have no pity for them. Their “nakba” was duplicated in every Arab country that forced their Jews to leave their homes in which they had lived for centuries with nothing but the clothes on their backs. Between 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews went to Israel AND VIRTUALLY EVERY ONE OF THEM WAS INSTANTLY EMBRACED AS FAMILY. Some others went to the United States or Canada, but the bulk became Israeli citizens by simply walking into her borders.
Do you remember when two Israeli soldiers accidentally found themselves in an Arab area? The filthy animals shouted Allah Akbar as they murdered the soldiers in cold blood and then ate parts of their intestines. DO YOU REMEMBER? DO YOU REMEMBER. DO YOU REMEMBER?
Go ahead, shed tears for people who unlawfully entered Israel with the intent of doing damage to her. Then sign a statement removing yourself as a human being.
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H. Laddie Schnaiberg
3:27 am
Jul 15, 2011
Albert and David; Your failure to understand my comments is beyond my comprehension. I did not say that Israel did not have the right to control who enters the country. All I said is that when people are arrested, they have a right to legal counsel and the law preventing lawyers from representing them is hardly representative of a democracy. In Canada, where I practice law, every person who is refused entry or any person who faces deportation, are both entitled to have legal counsel to represent the before the Canadian Immigration tribunal and then before the Canadian Federal Court. In the majority of case the Canadian Government decisions are upheld, but there are minority of cases where the immigrant wins his case and is allowed to remain in Canada. Don’t tell me what the Arab Countries did to the Jews. That is not the issue. Just remeber that the U.S. and Canada would never enact a law whereby lawyers are prevented from representing incarcerated people.
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Beverly Kurtin
3:40 am
Jul 15, 2011
Laddie, Israel is NOT the U.S. or Canada. She has the whole freaking world against her. She doesn’t always have the time for the niceties that other countries do. Canada has laws that differ from the U.S. and Israel and Holland and…
In years gone by, I used to have to travel to Toronto, ON. Great city, but filled with too many ARABS. You Canucks aren’t doing a bloody thing to shut down the terror training camps that abound in your beautiful country; yes, I like Canada.
When it comes to Israel, go visit the place and find out for yourself that they aren’t being paranoid: The Arabs really DO want to totally destroy it.
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Albert Reingewirtz
3:49 am
Jul 15, 2011
Laddie, I am so happy you mentioned that you practice law in Canada. It follows that you must be aware of Canada’s abysmal history. During the Shoa your PM said regarding Jews trying to escape the Shoa to Canada: “One is too many!” So tell us how Canada behaves with people trying to enter Canada to save their life compare to Israel trying to prevent supporters of Arab terror and including probably Arab terrorists arriving after having declared their intentions.
So, Laddie which country looks better in that case Canada or Israel?
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