Long-Term IDF Plans to “Kill and Maim”?
August 16, 2011 12:05 by Simon Plosker
While its neighbors such as Syria demonstrate a particular malevolent disregard for human life, why is it that Israel continues to be singled out with uniquely evil attributes?
Take The Independent, which has published a series of front page articles exposing how some banks have invested in companies that produce cluster bombs. Ignoring any other examples of cluster bomb usage, Chris Atkins inserts the following into his comment piece:
The really awful thing about cluster bombs is their longevity. They kill and maim decades after they were dropped, which is presumably why Israel deposited millions of them in the last three days of its Lebanon invasion in 2006.
The fact that unexploded cluster munitions can cause damage long after they have been dropped is not in dispute and it is legitimate to debate the efficacy of using such weapons (which are legal under international law) to begin with.
Atkin’s assertion, however, that Israel dropped cluster bombs on Lebanon with the specific intent of causing indiscriminate deaths and injuries for decades after the event, is a view that attibutes demonic qualities to Israel that has no basis in reality or logic. Israel takes extreme measures to avoid civilian casualties even when its enemy, in this case Hezbollah, operates from within civilian areas.
But then in the minds of some, Israel is just an evil killing machine.
Send your considered comments to The Independent – letters@independent.co.uk. Remember – letters for publication in the newspaper must include the sender’s name, postal address and daytime telephone number.
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Long-Term IDF Plans to Kill and Maim? «ScrollPost.com
2:20 pm
Aug 16, 2011
[...] in companies that produce cluster bombs. Ignoring any other [...]Original article can be viewed at Long-Term IDF Plans to Kill and Maim? on HonestReporting.Source: Europe & OECD BlogsPublished: 16 August 2011Site: [...]
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Tzvi-Gad
10:02 am
Aug 29, 2011
This discussion had degenerated into one based on simple ignorance.
Cluster munitions are not used exclusively as area-denial weapons against civilians.
In the first instance they are used against area-denial for preventing manoeuvre of military units.
Globally, 33 countries are known to have produced over 210 different types of cluster munitions since 1942 (USSR), including projectiles, bombs, rockets and missiles. Cluster munitions are stockpiled by over 70 states
For this reason Israel was supplied with three different types of cluster munitions
The CBU-58 is loaded with 650 bomblets. These bomblets contain 5-gram titanium pellets, making them incendiary and useful against flammable targets.
The CBU-100 Cluster Bomb (also called the Mk-20 Rockeye II) is an American cluster bomb which is employed primarily in an anti-tank mode. It weighs 490 pounds and carries 247 Mk 118 Mod 1 bomblets.
M26 is the basic MLRS rocket. It is unguided with a range of 20mi (32km). It is armed with 644 M77 DPICM (Dual-Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions) anti-personnel/anti-materiel grenades, which are dispersed over the target in mid-air and detonate on impact.
Please notice that it would be physically impossible that “Israel deposited millions of them in the last three days of its Lebanon invasion in 2006″ because this would require, in the case of the M26, 1552 such rockets to deliver one million bomblets at 12 rockets per firing.
Israel was sold a total of 54 M270 rocket launchers that are the most likely used for supporting ground operations in Lebanon. This would mean that all these systems would have fired 28 rockets each in three days, a number considerably greater than required given the nature of the targets
There is such a thing as consideration of weapon effectiveness in satisfying its mission.
The mission of the IDF in 2006 Lebanon operation was to destroy a FORTIFIED LINE, mostly consisting of reinforced bunkers and concealed firing positions for direct and indirect Hizzbullah weapons, and NOT to defeat a mobile enemy force, whether on foot or in vehicles. The entire enemy force facing IDF in Lebanon was estimated to have been about 5,000 individuals.
The use of cluster munitions would have been a highly illogical choice of weapons to use against such targets!
At best cluster munitions may have been used to deny rear area of this fortified complex to prevent resupply of the Hizzbullah with ammunition and other supplies.
How much area can such a rocket cover with its 644 grenades? 0.23 square kilometers!
The only danger to civilians would be the unexploded submunitions. Various figures are bandied about their unreliability, but it seems the upper limit is about 10%, which means that at most 64 grenades would be left to cause damage later in a very small area.
For MILLIONS of such greandes to be available to cause casualties to the civilian population (and millions suggests at least two), then 20 MILLION grenades would need to have been fired using over 31,000 rockets! I would venture to suggest that given the VERY SMALL AREA OF CONFLICT, 20,000,000 greandes would have created a saturation of such density that even a field mouse would be incapable of negotiating the terrain!
It therefore suggests to me that Chris Atkins was using a “journalistic license” comparable to that of James Bond when he made the suggestion.
The most likely munitions used in the 2006 Lebanon operation would have been precision demolition weapons, such as anti-fortification rounds fired directly by the M109 155mm howitzers, the closer-range firing of the Merkava tanks (which sustained casualties because of this), and the precision-guided aviation demolition weapons.
Now lets consider the “evidence” brought by the Human Rights Watch (HRW)
They suggested total of 4.6 million bomblets were used over Lebanon on almost 1000 strike sites.
They also suggested that each weapon can carry up to 2000 submunitions.
They claim that since the war, unexploded bomblets have killed at least 30 people and injured some 200 others.
Cluster munitions by definition do not ‘strike’ the ground to release the submunitions, so estimating the number of strikes is highly difficult.
The only weapons that carry close to 2,000 submunitions are anti-tank bomblets. Germany has MW-1 with over 4,000 KB 44 bomblets that were designed for the Cold War and expected Soviet armoured thrusts. FEWER submunitions are required for anti-personnel cluster weapons because they are intended for softer targets.
If 4.6 million anti-personnel grenades were dropped, then with a 10% failure rate, 460,000 would be left in the field unexploded, not “millions”. This would still be an overkill for the estimated 10,000 civilians that returned to the former combat zone in South Lebanon. So why were there only 230 cluster munitions casualties where one would expect the entire 10,000 to be wiped out in short order?
In fact the civilian casuatly rate from unexploded munitions in post-conflict areas averages about 2% around the world over a decade. This was my statistical conclusion after looking at figures from other conflicts dating back to 1970s. Since this would amount to 9,200 individuals between 2006 and 2016, and so far (2010) only 230 were made casualties, simple statistics suggests that either the estimated number of munitions used by Israel in 2006 is overestimated by over 30 times, or their reliability is far higher than the 10% quoted above. However, even at the highest reliability margin I found of 2% this would still mean the claimed volume of submunitions is over 9 times greater than one would expect based on casualty figures.
Suddenly instead of “millions” of unexploaded munitions we are looking at about 60,000 such munitions, and in a fairly narrow strip of land perhaps 1-2 square kilometers in width.
In fact although the affected area is claimed as “across 1,400 square kilometers of southern Lebanon”, the MLRS rockets are only capable of a 32km range, so can only be, for the purpose of this operation, about 32kms x 35kms in size, i.e. 1,120 square kilometers. To cover this area with artillery delivered anti-personnel cluster submunitions would have only required 4,870 with rockets with 3,134,000 grenades, wastefull as it would have been though since the IDF would not have been able to operate over this area itself, though we know now that in fact IDF HAD conducted ground operations, eventually several kilometers into the Lebanese territory.
On balance the entire claim made by Chris Atkins fails because it doesn’t make: military sense, statistical sense, conform with evidence from other conflicts, and is not supported by the number of casualties sustained by the civilians since the end of the conflict. His statement in fact discredits the very thesis of his article!
TG
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John Shook
6:38 pm
Aug 16, 2011
Most people hate the Jews because they hate God. (Pure and simple)
But, each and everyone that does harm or causes harm to the Jewish people will pay the ultimate penalty when they stand before God, whether they believe it or not.
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Peter Cohen
1:36 am
Aug 17, 2011
“Jews hate God”? What nonsense is this? Jews simply do not accept Jesus as the Messiah let alone as the son of God. God is the fundament of Judaism, learn something about the Jewish tradition before you comment on it. Antisemitism was the product of the early Church, struggling for recognition, it was repeated within Islam, but not in all branches of the faith. It does not exist at all in the Asian religions. People in India, China Japan do not understand the concept. Our own indigenous people once lead a delegation to the German embassy in Canberra objecting to the Nazi treatment of Jews. I have a bit to do with Taiwan, the largely Buddhist Taiwanese support Israel.
Antisemitism is a form of racism, entirely without reason. Israel can be criticised, but do it objectively without prejudice.
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Paul Kellner
5:53 pm
Aug 17, 2011
I think you didn’t parse this sentence correctly.
“Most people hate the Jews because they hate God.”
The sentence might be rephrased, “Most people hate the Jews because most people hate God.” But even this is not exactly what he said. The word “because” in the sentence gives a reason for the action by “most people.” He is attributing hatred of Jews to hatred of God. Zechariah says that the Jews are the apple of God’s eye. Many Christians are familiar with this verse so it would be logical for Christians to conclude that hatred for God would filter down to hatred for the Jews.
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cba
4:59 am
Aug 17, 2011
Peter, I’m pretty sure you’re mis-reading John Shook’s first sentence. Having read the rest of his comment, I understand “they” to refer to those who hate Jews, not to Jews themselves. In other words, in Mr. Shook’s opinion, hating God leads people to hate Jews.
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Peter Cohen
6:08 am
Aug 17, 2011
You may well be correct. But wouldn’t they also hate Christians and Muslims who share the same concept of God? Perhaps we will have to ask Mr Shook what he actually meant.
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Paul Kellner
6:53 pm
Aug 17, 2011
“But wouldn’t they also hate Christians and Muslims who share the same concept of God?”
You are correct that people hate Christians for the same reason, but Muslims do not share the same concept of God as Christians or Jews. The hatred of Christians is a growing movement in the world today.
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John Shook
2:03 pm
Aug 17, 2011
Peter you did misread my comment. cba explained it perfectly. I wouldn’t harm a Jewish person intentionally for anything as they are still the chosen of God to bless all mankind.
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Paul Kellner
6:28 pm
Aug 17, 2011
I have to comment on this statement also.
“Antisemitism was the product of the early Church, struggling for recognition, it was repeated within Islam, but not in all branches of the faith. It does not exist at all in the Asian religions. People in India, China Japan do not understand the concept.”
Working my way backwards, I do believe that Jawaharlal Nehru was something of an antisemite. My understanding is that he was influenced by the same people that influenced Hitler. It was fortunate that India supported the allies during the war.
As for the early church being anti-semitic, I think it is you who don’t understand Christian history. If you start in the Book of Acts you will see a clear pattern that the apostles always went first to the synagogues and the Jewish people. Several of the books of the New Testament are directly addressed to Jews (Romans, Hebrews and James), not goyim. It was only when Christianity was embraced officially by the Roman emperor that antisemitism started to creep in. From that day the form of the “official” state church seemed to take on some flavor of the roman state as well as incorporating parts of Christianity while “burying” the scripture to the masses. The Roman state was familiar with persecution of Christians by Jews and reacted as a government would react, not as Christians should react. Perhaps the apostle Paul had this in mind when he penned, “Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” That roman branch of Christianity has antisemitic leanings to this day. But it is just a branch and not the root or the whole. There are Christians like Corey Ten Boom (who I have personally spoken to) who went to the camps for sheltering Jews in the war. You cannot lump all Christians into one bag just like you can’t lump all Jews into one bag.
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Bill Kelly
6:05 am
Aug 18, 2011
Yes it is much the opposite, as another poster said. Those who hate Jews hate and oppose God. Which points to another interesting thing, that often those who adamantly consider themselves atheists, truly have a problem of anger or hatred towards God. But that is another issue, although it has some relevance to this discussion. It is true that some who called themselves Christians have been very antisemitic, but the first Christians were Jews, and did not consider believing in Yeshua to be in opposition to the faith the Jews had, but a completion of it. Not to deny in any way the many atrocities committed against Jews by some in the name of their supposed Christianity. But do remember that the early Christians, and true Christians today, love Israel. When many Jews were suffering from drought in the first century, they collected offerings to send back to Jerusalem. This is how the tradition that many Christians now have of meeting in their gatherings on Sunday began. Because Paul of Tarsus asked them to gather together their donations on the first day of the week, and that he would collect it when he came to send back to Israel. He was not like many preachers today who beg for money. He did not want to impose on other Christians, and did not want to be influenced by donations to his ministry. It has been said that the source of his income was supplemented by his making and selling of prayer shawls. As Yeshua had taught, he believed that the Messiah came to fulfill the Law, not to do away with it. It is so sad that even though Yeshua taught us to love, and to forgive, and emphasized his teaching on what is basically the command from the Torah to love your neighbor as yourself, so much: it is so sad to see those calling themselves his disciples, doing such horrible things to Jewish people, of which Yeshua himself was, that is Jewish, a Hebrew himself from the tribe of Judah .But hypocrisy is not found only in one country, or peoples, but corruption and hatred have influenced many people both Jewish and Christian.
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Tejano
3:22 pm
Aug 21, 2011
Yes, “Israel can be criticised, but do it objectively without prejudice.” And how may Palestine be criticized?
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Jayson Rex
6:39 pm
Aug 16, 2011
As long as Israel allows the presence of even one Arab in Cisjordan, there will not be peace. This everybody knows but it is not politically correct to admit it. The agenda of the IAA (Int. Antisemitic Association) has been set right on the day following the U.N. vote on partition and has not been altered: deligitimize and “diamond of the Middle East” and then try to destroy it.
Is one wonders who is associated with IAA, here is the reply: (a) Muslims, trying to prove that Muhammad, the so-called last prophet on earth, was right in his hateful diatrabs against Jews and Christians too; (b) some Christians that are longing for the good old times when pogroms, ghettos, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, etc. and etc., were their ‘plat du jour’; (c) what is left of the Left looking for a new maneuvering mass after the implosion of the Soviet Russia and Mao’s China; (d) a few demented activists trying to find something to do with their lives, thus avoiding the impetus to kill themselves out of boredom.
As long as Israel stands tall and firm there will be many trying to bring it down – one way or another. THEY WILL NEVER SUCCEED!
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reiska
5:57 am
Aug 26, 2011
Claims need to be underpinned by verifiable evidence.
Please provide your evidence that some Christians today are longing for the “good old days”.
If you can’t do that, please apologise to the Christian readers of Honest Reporting who support Israel.
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Re: Jayson Rex
7:43 pm
Aug 16, 2011
Jayson Rex: I agree that anti-Semitism is atrocious and rampant and Israel must be defended. Nonetheless, your absolute statement about Arabs is not only ignorant, but it’s racist and untrue. People fighting racism of one kind have got to do better than that.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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Jayson Rex
11:07 pm
Aug 16, 2011
Jews are sick and tired of being the target of antisemitism for 2000 years. If their reaction is considered racist it does not necessarily mean it is untrue. In fact, it is sufficient to read the headlines at any time and one can see what goes on in the Arab world. The fact that many don’t like what they see or hear about Muslims in general and Arabs in particular is their problem – since, apparently, they cannot accept any truism that applies to such people. Sorry, but Israel cannot accept the risk of making peace and then ‘sleeping with the enemy’. Appeasement has been tried before in a different venue and it failed miserably. Should the world insist?
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Tejano
3:10 pm
Aug 26, 2011
Whether or not you like a Jew or some Jews has little to do with whether or not a state should run more people off their land and out of Palestine, and load Palestine up with Jews. Most of the civilised world has opposed this ethnic cleansing project form the outset and opposes it still
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Tzvi-Gad
4:55 am
Aug 28, 2011
ethnic cleansing?
Excuse me, but are you aware that the Arab policy for Jews in Israel has been ethnic cleansing since 1924?
And for your information the west bank of River Jordan (not West Bank) is largely what until 1922 was shown on European maps as Judea….thats where Jews that you mentioned three times in your post call ANCESTRAL LANDS, not the fantasy land of “Palestine” (Syria-Palaestina) that existed only on the Christian maps as a name of a province created by Romans that reflected the political geography at the time of the founding of Christianity
TG
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Tejano
5:47 am
Aug 28, 2011
? There ain’t nobody cleansing Israel of Jews. WTH are you talking about?
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Re: Jayson Rex
3:52 pm
Aug 17, 2011
Jayson, as I said, I’m keenly aware of Hamas, Hizbullah, Palestinian media incitement – the whole gamut of their vitriol. I hate anti-Semitism and defend the Jewish people against it. Where I’m pushing back is your broad strokes. It’s one thing to say, “Peace within our borders is not possible as long as Arab and Muslim anti-Semitic hatred exists; it’s rampant and cannot be ignored in diplomacy and defense.”
It’s quite another thing to say, “As long as Israel allows the presence of even one Arab in Cisjordan, there will not be peace.”
Yes, they’re a minority, but I know a number of Arabs IN Israel – Druze, Arab Christians, Bedouin Muslims etc – who LOVE Israel and/or serve in the IDF, and would be aghast at such a sweeping comment. I do understand where you’re coming from; I still encourage you to be informed rather than rejecting Arabs who could otherwise be your friends – just because of their ethnicity.
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Tzvi-Gad
3:01 am
Aug 17, 2011
Are the cluster bombs even able to explode after a certain time? It seems to me that for some time now modern aviation munitions are manufactured equipped with self-destruct or self-deactivation mechanisms after a certain period to prevent them being used as IEDs, and Israel was instrumental in the change to this design philosophy after 1982. Please see here http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/the-problem/what-is/?id=107
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Paul Kellner
9:45 pm
Aug 21, 2011
Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_bomb
Wikipedia has a comprehensive article on cluster weapons, some of which are not considered cluster bombs by International Treaty.
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Tzvi-Gad
6:49 am
Aug 26, 2011
Wikipedia is not a trusted source, but is highly anti-Semitic
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Tejano
7:17 am
Aug 26, 2011
? Thanks for the heads-up on that one, Tzvi
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Paul Kellner
2:10 am
Aug 27, 2011
You need a wikipedia account. Unlike the NY Times, if you disagree with something on wikipedia you can do something about it. I have contributed many times to it in my areas of expertise. Editing wikipedia is not for the faint of heart either.
Now there is an article on wikipedia regarding HR. It includes a reference to Fisk’s response to HR pressure, but the article is a full ten years old now. Don’t be surprised if this “criticism” gets edited shortly. It is certainly not indicative of the HR that I have come to know or what HR stands for. There may in fact be a few misguided HR letter writers who use foul language or threats. That is true in any public forum of this nature. But his criticism should be leveled at the letter writers, not HR since HR is not in the habit of putting words in people’s mouths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honest_Reporting
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/robert–fisk-the-internet-threat-to-truly-honest-reporting-686255.html
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Moshe Flam
10:17 am
Aug 17, 2011
But did we actually ‘drop’ cluster bombs in the last 3 days of the Lebanon war, and if so, where and why?
In the book Aza Kamavet by Shlomi Eldar the turning point (at least he tries to move the readers into that turning point) is when he discovers that Israel used some rockets to target terrorists, but rockets that have a wide spread and in fact killed civilians, and that the high ranking officers he was in contact with denied it.
If we can get the full story correctly and in context then we can fight the targeted Arab terrorism on civilians. But we should try to convince the Arabs too. They have brains and a conscience, although it has been washed in hatred. It is a fact that many Arabs in Israel (including what is now the PA) and even in Gaza, are open to the truth when they clearly see it. Same for Arabs in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Its a steep uphill climb, but needs to be done.
BTW – this is needed no less for our own crowd.
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Steve Mann
12:06 pm
Aug 17, 2011
When you fight a war- The idea is to win that war- And as far as Israel is concerned she can never afford to loose.
So I do not know whether cluster bombs where dropped or not- If they were then blame the perpetrators of that was- Hezbollah- They have and their predecessors have taken Lebanon from being the Switzerland of the ME- To the “Pits”.
Israel must do whatever it takes to survive- I for one do not care how she dose it.
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sav'ta shel Cohen
12:56 pm
Aug 17, 2011
Israel has the will, intellectual resources and the means to protect itself very effectively. That is a fact but Israel is not the aggressor! It is a small nation surrounded by millions of people who would rather that Jews and a Jewish state did not exist and unfortunately it must constantly fight to survive. It is no secret that Israel, although it has a high regard for human life and tries not to harm innocent civilians, is ferocious in battle but warfare is an ugly business. The nations against whom Israel fights are not saintly or restrained by ethics or morals but for many reasons it is only Israel that is demonized by the media. Such a situation is clearly a demonstration of anti-semitism! If it weren’t so disgusting it would be laughable that the media has the audacity to completely overlook the vile nature of the warfare raged by larger, more populated Arab nations and to focus only on trying to make the Jewish state of Israel look like a nation of satanic killers. Thank goodness for forums such as this where such displays of anti-semitism can be exposed and outed!
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Martin Durham
1:09 pm
Aug 17, 2011
It is unfortunate that Israel is in the position of having to fight to survive and I find it fairly alarming that there is such a high level of antisemitism in the news media. Some of the stuff I am hearing from arab countries sounds a lot like pre WWII Germany.
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Tzvi-Gad
2:01 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Martin,
“Judeo-Christianity I think you can reasonably lump together” – No, there is no such religion as Judeo-Christianity
“Christians and Jews would at least agree that God is the God of Israel” – No, most Catholics for example think that God is the God of Vatican
And to quote Teddy Kollek during ????? addressing Christians “we believe Messiah will come you believe he will return”, there is a commonality between Christians and Jews. Just in case Christians forget Jesus was Jewish, a descendant of David. – I can’t find the quote, in any case, that Jesus existed at all is a theory. That he was a descendant of David is unlikely given the name seems not to be in popular use among the rabbis, but that he was a descendant of Kind David is a distinct impossibility given the confused family tree given by xtians, but even more so that he wasn’t recognised as such by his fellow Jews
TG
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Paul Kellner
3:13 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Tzvi,
I think you replied to the wrong post. The “reply” buttons are confusing in a long thread.
Rabbinical scholarship is not the only line of evidence for the existence of Jeshua. There are other historical records and I am not just speaking of the Christian scriptures.
As for Jeshua’s “confused” family tree, I think you are referring to the differences in Matthew and Luke. The differences can easily be explained by recognizing that one is for his father, Joseph, and one for his mother, Mary. Both were descended from David.
As for the fact that many Jews of his time did not recognize his true descent, well, he acknowledged that they did not know when addressing them. However, the account of his birth gives the fact his family had to go to Bethlehem to register for the Roman census. This would clearly point to his descent from David and would not be generally known by the populace. That there was an assassination attempt on his life while yet a baby would explain why his family probably did not make their descent widely known and lived in Galilee,
The term Judeo-Christian does not refer to a religion, but to a common set of beliefs held by Jewish people and Christians and is based on both groups holding the same scriptures in the Tanach. As I mentioned previously, the roman branch of Christianity mixed romanism and Christianity and removed access to the scripture from the masses. Where you find Christians that hold the scripture in high regard and know it well you will find true Christians that support Israel. The roman branch of Christianity makes the error of saying that all the promises to Abraham, etc. now devolve upon that church. That is twisting scripture, both the Tanach and the Christian scriptures. Christianity has neither one central point of control on this earth nor a land to identify with. Even the term Christian was applied first in Syria some years after Jeshua left the earth not while he was present; as Christian derives from the greek word chrism which means oil or anointing which has it’s roots in Jewish culture as something done to a prophet or king.
One common belief held by both Jews and Christians is that through the Jews come the oracles of God. This common belief is not held by Muslims. Though they call both groups people of the book, their book is at variance on so many key points that there is not much in common at all except some names and places. Many Christian pastors, on the other hand, will have studied Hebrew in order to read the scripture in the original language.
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Martin Durham
12:57 pm
Aug 17, 2011
Peter I also misread that comment from John. I don’t think you can lump Christians and Muslims together as their beliefs are diametrically opposed. Judeo-Christianity I think you can reasonably lump together and how people respond to Israel and the Jewish people is I think a fair litmus test of their relationship with God. Christians and Jews would at least agree that God is the God of Israel, Muslims certainly would not. And to quote Teddy Kollek during ????? addressing Christians “we believe Messiah will come you believe he will return”, there is a commonality between Christians and Jews. Just in case Christians forget Jesus was Jewish, a descendant of David.
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reiska
6:32 am
Aug 28, 2011
Any person claiming that he is a Christian is going to have a hard time convincing anyone that he is a Christian, if he doesn’t know that Jesus was Jewish, and in the direct line of descent from King David.
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Paul Kellner
6:45 pm
Aug 17, 2011
I believe there are two kinds of cluster bombs. One kind explodes in the air or on contact immediately upon being dropped. The other “is designed to the deny the enemy access to an area for a period of time.” The second kind is intentionally creating a mine field. The first kind has the unintended consequence that some of the bomblets may not go off immediately. If a battle is fought on enemy territory it would seem to me that the responsibility for cleaning up belongs to the parties controlling the area after the hostilities are over. Since the Jewish state does not control those areas and the possibility of unexploded ordinance (of any type from any source) exists there it would seem that the onus for the safety of the people rests on those running Lebanon.
Unexploded ordinance is a horrible legacy seen in many wars from Russian mines in Afghanistan to Africa to Eastern Europe to the Philippines and even to a local area near my home in the US.
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reiska
6:36 am
Aug 28, 2011
To countenance the use of cluster bombs that lay down minefields is barbaric savagery.
The manufacture of such weapons ought to be totally banned and the most severe sanctions applied to manufacturers who continue to produce them.
Of course one will not prevent Jihadists from using them if available and so the supply needs to be stopped at the first stage.
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Steve Mann
3:35 pm
Aug 28, 2011
You can not “un-invent” the wheel- All this talk about banning and making weapons illegal belongs in fairy books-
By this one should make anything that resembles a weapon illegal and ban it- Hence all wars will be fought using ones fists!-
A war for how terrible as it is -has to be won- I am afraid in reality its “No holds barred”.
In ancient times it was fought between two opposing armies and in the main only soldiers died- Now civilians get caught up in it-
In fact as you will note Hamas`s war against Israel is mainly aimed at her civilians.
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Tejano
4:33 pm
Aug 28, 2011
“Hamas`s war against Israel is mainly aimed at her civilians.”
Yes, either that or they “murder” and “kidnap” soldiers. How on earth do they manage to “kidnap” an occupying soldier who is shelling their blockaded city?
It would be easier on your intellect if you understood fully that conquest always carries a price, and the conqueror has to pay his share
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Steve Mann
5:44 pm
Aug 28, 2011
If you had my intellect you would not have written the post that you have-
The soldier Shalit was kidnapped during a cease fire- No one was shelling any one at the time except for Hamas rockets coming over into S.Israel- and by the way on that point- Why has Hamas refused to let, even the Red Cross from visiting him? Even the Nazis allowed the Red Cross to see P.O.W`s. What dose that say for Hamas!
Then you talk as though Israel was still inside Gaza-
Recall Gaza had “Free and Fair” elections after Israel pulled out completely so as far as Gaza is concerned they are not living under a conqueror or an occupying force . And any idea when when the Gaza`an government is to hold another election to see if the people have been happy with their rule? I repeat “Hamas`s war against Israel is mainly aimed at her civilians.” and the proof is there for all to see- Rockets aimed at civilian areas, suicide bombers on Buses and in restaurants.
Israel has returned 100`s of live captured terrorists in exchanged for a handful of dead Israeli captured soldiers.
What more do you need to know?
Well-loved. Agree or Disagree:
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reiska
7:43 am
Aug 29, 2011
In stead of resorting to patronising remarks about the cerebral capacity of people who hold to a different view of events in the middle east, it might be a lot better were you to just focus on factual data and critical thinking rather than ad hominem comments that don’t lead anywhere.
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Tzvi-Gad
2:07 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Unexploded ordnance is a horrible legacy of all wars since the invention of the shell. The nature of the chemicals used in ammunition and their increased instability over time can perhaps be understood from the perspective of the EOD teams in Europe that still take same precautions when dealing with the shells dug up from the battlefields of the First World War as they do when encountering IEDs in Afghanistan.
Europeans still die on occasion from ammunition intended for their great-grandfathers…
TG
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Tejano
12:58 am
Aug 29, 2011
The soldier Shalit was kidnapped during a cease fire- that don’t mean anything. You were raining shells on Gaza. And you have all the prisoners. If you give away a few hundred you can arrest a few hundred more.
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reiska
7:45 am
Aug 29, 2011
That’s right. The cease fires don’t mean anything because the Gaza arabs don’t take them seriously.
For them, a cease fire is just for convenience and to be disregarded at any time.
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Tejano
2:03 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Right, cease fires mean noyhing because your incursions, targeted killings, blockades, harrasment and expropriations continue unabated as they have for 70 years
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Steve Mann
11:43 am
Aug 29, 2011
Tejano- Your statement fails to answer any points I made. I answered all your points regarding , conquerors and occupiers – regarding Gaza- on that silence-
I answer your point that Shalit was “Captured” during a cease fire- You retort with a nonsensical comment.
I ask you why Hamas will not allow the Red Cross to visit a prisoner soldier-Silence-
I mention that Israel has never had back a captured soldier alive- Silence.
Is it that you refuse to discuss and only desire to castigate.?
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Tejano
2:05 pm
Aug 29, 2011
I wouldn’t allow the Red Cross in either. You might as well ask them to put a neon sign over the front door
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Steve Mann
3:39 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Well after that comment by “Tejano” I rest my case -
The comment tells all, the mindset of this person- There is absolutely no point what so ever in any discussion with him/her.
And if this is an example of the way of the Hamas etc supporters and of Hamas- Then maybe the world should realise what they expect Israel to negotiate with.
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Tejano
5:07 pm
Aug 29, 2011
And there’s no point in discussing your State with half the people who live in it, now is there? Anybody ever tell you creeps you got a one-track mind?
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reiska
4:03 am
Aug 30, 2011
Oh dear, more ad hominem attacks by this Tejano person.
Can you not be constructive for once?
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Steve Mann
6:25 pm
Aug 29, 2011
I hope those like “Tejano” keep postin and hopefully from Microsoft intel works- So I know they are helping the Israeli economy.!
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Tejano
7:44 pm
Aug 29, 2011
Help? You all need help do you?
How about full diplomatic, political and mililtary backing , a free , uh, “Defence Force” from a real power, and a license to steal.
If half the Jews in the world didn’t live here, the other half could never live in Israel and do what they’re doing
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Steve Mann
8:30 pm
Aug 29, 2011
No comment!
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